――Please tell us your current position and affiliation.
I’m a freelancer, and I’m often credited as a prop designer, but I’m actually a jack of all trades within a team. I draw 2D, I set costumes, I draw things like image boards ……. The work I’m currently working on is a kind of animation revival from the era of cell painting, so I do a lot of cell harmony work, which is based on the original and cut with an analog painting touch.
I started out as a video artist, and after passing an in-house drawing exam, I became an original artist. I worked as an original artist for several years under the guidance of a master I met there, but around that time I became unable to reconcile my gender sensitivities with the work I was actually doing, so I left my job as an animator. Around the same time, I was publishing an illustration book on my own, and the producer in my current group approached me after seeing it, and I’ve been working in my current group ever since.
――You’re not an animator, are you?
It’s a little different. This is difficult to explain, and it’s hard to say what my job is, so I tell people I’m an animator when I first meet them, but it’s a little different. But I think I understand a lot because I was an animator, so I think that’s my strength.
――Do you have an employment contract for each work?
I’m a freelancer, but I’ve been in the same group of animation staff for a long time, so I don’t have a contract for a work, but I work for the group. The manager tell me like, “After we finish this, I’ll ask the next one.”
――I’d like to ask about your career. Did you enter the industry after graduating from school and gaining knowledge as an animator?
My background is oil painting. I graduated from the oil painting department at Musashino Art University, and as far as knowledge goes, I was making my own work there.
――Are you making your own oil paintings?
No, I was in the oil painting department, but I was making videos. I collaborated with other members of the video department and put out works at school festivals. I made my own work with my friends, keeping in mind the flow of commercial animation.
I also made my graduation work in animation. Compared to oil painting, animation takes more time to complete. So up until that point, the frequency of assignments as part of the oil painting department and the technique of animation didn’t quite mesh. But after graduation, I was finally able to complete a work and get feedback. That experience inspired me to continue my creative work as an individual, and it eventually led to me being approached for my current job.
――What about after graduation?
After graduation, I got a job at an animation production company and became a video director.
――I know you like art. What made you choose the oil painting department?
I have to ask myself when I was a high school student, but I think it was because I liked painting. I probably thought the painting department would be good.
But when I entered the school, I had a lot to think about conceptual art. When I was a student, of course, it was a painting course, so I sometimes faced depictions, but many of my classmates were doing contemporary art, so I probably had a foundation in myself to be aware of things like “what did this representation refer to?” “Why is this motif?” and “why am I making this now?” when I looked at or made something. I think that’s the root of this problem awareness.
――You’ve loved drawing since you were a child. How was animation?
I also liked anime. I like Satoshi Kon‘s work.
I started wanting to be an animator when I was in middle or high school. But rather than going to an animator’s school to become an animator, I probably had the idea that taking a detour would be more enriching. Because of that, I feel a little lost in a labyrinth.
――When did you first become interested in gender?
I became interested in gender after I graduated from college. Until I started working, I thought that the anime industry was completely technique-based, regardless of gender. But once I entered the industry, I realized that it wasn’t completely true. The number of female directors and producers is increasing, but it’s still rare.
――How did you become aware of this?
When I was a new graduate, I heard a lot of stories about my classmates being treated unreasonably because they were women, including in other industries. Even in my own company, I heard rumors and behavior that I couldn’t immediately handle.
It’s not just about the anime industry. My classmates at university entered various industries and went to various places, but they were all treated unreasonably because they were women. I felt that society doesn’t have gender equality.
――That was from 2000 to the 2010s, right?
Around 2016. I graduated in 2016. It’s been another 10 years since then, so I hope it’s gone now, but I still hear things from my juniors that I can’t believe my ears.
――I’ve had such experiences one after another, and I thought something was wrong.
That’s right.
――Is the anime industry still unfamiliar with gender issues?
There are a lot of late-night anime that depict female bodies in a sexualized way, so I feel conflicted about strengthening the social structure when I enter such works.
More and more people are watching anime on streaming services like Netflix, so even if it’s meant to be a late-night anime, I’m not sure how well the zoning system works. I think that’s a difficult problem.
――There aren’t many gender-sensitive people in decision-making positions, I guess.
That’s right. If there are women in decision-making positions, it’s easier to talk to them about things like discomfort or concerns about gender expression in the work. Of course, I consult with men, and I’ve actually consulted with them many times in the past, but when it comes to matters related to gender, men are conveniently placed on the side of looking at and consuming, so I pay a lot of attention to the choice of words so that people don’t think I’m treating them as enemies by categorizing them as men. On top of that, I communicate my awareness of the problem and the fact that I want to improve the work, so I need to have a relationship with them on a regular basis, and I’m relieved if they listen to me without being defensive. It’s a very costly time for both you and the other person.
――What did you do before you left and went on to work?
I worked part-time at a restaurant.
――How did you get back into the animation business after working part-time?
I was publishing an illustration book at an exhibition. Nowadays, there are animators who draw a variety of pictures, but at that time it was rare for animators to draw pictures with a touch of oil painting, so there was someone who cared about me. He saw my self-published illustration book and approached me, and about six months later I was working in animation again.
――It’s a self-publication book, so-called doujinshi. Were you publishing doujinshi regularly?
Yes. I have published two books, and then people see them.
However, I feel that I have strayed from the path to a legitimate career, and I have a lot of conflicts. I get to do interesting work, and I am in an environment where people value my ideas. I am happy to get work like that, but I have strayed from the route as an artist, which is to work steadily from original art to directing, character designing etc.
――What do you think of your future career path?
I am very worried. I am also attracted to academic settings. When I think about creating my own work, I am interested in the contemporary art that I studied in the oil painting department in college. What I want to do is connect anime representation to a more sociological aspect. The Ending Art of Wonder Egg Priority was created in part by thinking about the hollowing out of local shopping districts and independent stores, and the rise of large corporations such as large-scale malls. I know this because I’ m from a rural area, but it’s easy to get the idea that everything in your life is handled by malls. Especially when you’re a kid and you can’t shop online for yourself, you and your classmates eat and wear clothes from the same place. Even in such a uniform culture, each character is unique. I was thinking about how social policies and economic structures affect girls’ growth and personality development. I researched and compared the population pyramid of Japan as a whole with the one in the city where the game is set and tried to reflect the difference in the population ratio to express the atmosphere and environment the protagonists grew up in ……. I don’t know if it came out well, but I’ m glad I was able to try something mysterious.
I like making films with that kind of thinking in mind, so I hope to do this in more forms in the future.
――Still, when viewed from overseas, Japanese anime seem quite queer.
This coincides with my work abroad experience in Canada. I’ve actually heard people say things like, “The way Japanese anime characters are not caught up in gender dualism made me realize that I’m non-binary.” Japanese anime is loved by queer communities overseas, right? Sailor Moon, Utena, and Ranma 1/2 are examples of works that are queer-friendly overseas, but it’s not as if they’re intentionally queer-friendly.
――There are a lot of things that can’t be expressed in the Christian world, which is why Japanese works that depict seemingly taboo topics are so popular.
That’s right. That’s where the richness of Japanese expression comes in, but I’ve heard that it’s still hard to get projects to go through, especially for original anime, when you’re trying to intentionally push queerness all the way through.
It’s the same for me, and I know a few juniors who want to participate in and create works like that. I’m glad to know some of such juniors. But basically, in the anime industry, it takes a really long time to get started. I think it takes 10 years or more at the earliest to become a director, and in the process, you end up having to work hard on works that you don’t really like. So, I think that the more you have a sense of ownership as a minority, the more you feel a disconnect between your ideals and reality, and the more you leave the anime industry.
I want more people to be able to survive in such an environment, and I want to do what I can to make that happen.
――Are there any gender-fair expressions in recent anime?
This is my own observation, so I hope you’ll forgive any bias, but Maebashi Witches, written by Yoshida Erika of Tora ni Tsubasa, is a socially conscious anime.
“Go for it! NAKAMURA kun!!” became popular for its depiction of a life-size gay man.
Invisible Man and His Soon-to-be Wife is an anime featuring a visually impaired protagonist, so it was delivered with a barrier-free audio guide, and also features a queer couple.
The original author (Ren Mokumoku) clearly states that “The Summer Hikaru Dies is not a romance, but a queer story.” In “Skip and Loafers,” in which I participated as a painter, transgender characters naturally appear. In “Journal of Witch,” mixed roots classmates appear as normal beings, not as special beings.
I think there are more and more anime about Sisterhood, and there are many people in the children’s field who are seeking better expressions for future children. I am so encouraged by each work!
――Do your animator friends share what they like?
That’s right. Feminist animators talk about how good they are.
The quality of Jaadugar: A Witch in Mongolia, directed by Naoko Yamada, is so high that I think people in the industry who don’t usually have a feminist consciousness enjoy it. After all, I think the persuasive power of high quality is tremendous. When good expressions appear, more people understand the ideology behind them.
――So, have things improved a little since 10 years ago?
If it’s a work that’s really hard to work on, I think it’s okay to talk to them and ask to be removed. I think it’s difficult for newcomers to say so, so I hope there’s support from the workplace, such as confirming the content before assigning.
As a freelancer, you can do some work but ask to be non-credit. I’ve done some non-credit work myself.
――I see. But in the case of non-credit, even if you do a lot of work, it doesn’t count as an achievement, so don’t you get paid as you should?
Of course, you get money for what you do. It’s not recorded, so it can’t be counted as a career.
――We audiences can only see the finished product, so it’s really valuable to hear the undescribed voices of people in the production process. If we can actually visualize people who don’t like certain expressions and decide to make them special cases or non-credit, I think we can understand how much some staff want to be gender-justice. If you don’t mention it, I don’t think insensitive people will notice. They’ll react like, “What’s the problem?.”
Recently, I’ve been very interested in animation research. I’m reading your (Sugawa’s) Mahou Shoujo (Girls and Magic) and Yukimura Mayumi’s Animation and the Nation. I want people in the animation industry to learn about the knowledge of researchers. Commercial animations and TV animations are created at such a great speed that they don’t have time to look back on how the expressions they created are studied one by one.
――Such things don’t come out openly, so only people in the field can understand them.
That’s right. Right now, each person is doing their best little by little in each place.
――I hope that such movements will be connected.
That’s right. I hope that such organic movements of people will lead to more and more works.
――Lastly, what is your message to young people who are aiming to become animators or work for the animation industry?
Again, animators have a strong aspect of being artisans, and if you work for a long time, you may sometimes endure about your jobs, but I want them to value their own way of thinking. I think that’s what’s worth doing.
When I was conflicted about that, I chose a slightly different path from drawing, so I can’t help but want my juniors in drawing to stick with it. I hope there will be more people in the animation industry who have different ideas.
――Thank you very much.